What Metal Do I Use

[Dick Turpin]

As a new guy i am sure I am asking an age old question.

After I enjoyed reading and following Bills thread ( Make Decorative Metal Parts ) and he mentioned that he was useing Nickle Silver Stock that led me to ask the question What type of metal should I be looking to make all the metalwork on say a Monmouthshire Wagon etc will you chaps of great knowledge please help.

If this has been answered in a previous thread I have missed it, so sorry.

Eric.

[Bill Hudson]

Originally Posted by Dick Turpin

As a new guy i am sure I am asking an age old question.

After I enjoyed reading and following Bills thread ( Make Decorative Metal Parts ) and he mentioned that he was useing Nickle Silver Stock that led me to ask the question What type of metal should I be looking to make all the metalwork on say a Monmouthshire Wagon etc will you chaps of great knowledge please help.

If this has been answered in a previous thread I have missed it, so sorry.

Eric.

Eric,

You can use just about any metal you like but most settle for brass as it comes in many miniature sizes and shapes. I prefer mild steel sheet. I can cut most with a fine tooth hack saw and even the lighter gauges with my shear. I like to silver solder it (have not mastered welding) as opposed to soft (lead or tin) solders. Mild steel can also be forged, hot or cold. And mild steel matches the metal used in the fullsize wagons.

[Dick Turpin]

Thanks Bill for that information, How do we get on about rusting even from the normal ambient atmosphere within a home dwelling or workshop when useing normal mild steel I vaguely remember silver steel being mentioned somewhere, can you get that in the same stock sizes of round, square and sheet and will it work the same as mild steel and the question is would it rust.
I look at a lot of carts and wagons that members have made some years ago with the metalwork looking pristine if they used mild steel would they have coated it to avoid this surface rusting problem.

Eric

[Bill Hudson]

Originally Posted by Dick Turpin

Thanks Bill for that information, How do we get on about rusting even from the normal ambient atmosphere within a home dwelling or workshop when useing normal mild steel I vaguely remember silver steel being mentioned somewhere, can you get that in the same stock sizes of round, square and sheet and will it work the same as mild steel and the question is would it rust.
I look at a lot of carts and wagons that members have made some years ago with the metalwork looking pristine if they used mild steel would they have coated it to avoid this surface rusting problem.

Eric

I'm not sure what silver steel is. Nickel silver is a brass like metal only silver in color. I see there are several sources of it available through the web in the UK and I also have seen some shapes.

Yes steel can rust if not treated or painted. I like steel because it looks more natural and it paints well. Rust is not a problem for me as I let it happen when I want the effect. Note on the chain binder (first picture below) where the paint has worn away from use and the metal has darkened but not rusted. I am not usually a shiny new model builder. I am building old vehicles and they look old when done. Below are shots from various models. You can see where I let rust happen and where I did not. Note the tires on the mud wagon. I built that in 1965 and the tires are still shiny. These models were built in the sixties and seventies and I have done nothing to them since. Any rust you see was planned and was there when the models were done. When I am finished I spray all bare or treated metal with artist flat fixative. It puts a film over it but does not show.

[Dick Turpin]

Thanks Bill ,
I have know a better understanding of the use of mild steel not just the workability of the material but as you say left alone it will give a slight age old patina that looks in character with the wagon or cart etc,

This is what they term as the learning curve I think.

Once again many thanks for your help and the photo`s

Eric

[Bill Hudson]

Originally Posted by Dick Turpin

Thanks Bill ,
I have know a better understanding of the use of mild steel not just the workability of the material but as you say left alone it will give a slight age old patina that looks in character with the wagon or cart etc,

This is what they term as the learning curve I think.

Once again many thanks for your help and the photo`s

Eric

Eric,
Having pushed the mild steel on you I now suggest you consider other metals too. Play around with them. When I built these models I was learning from Ivan Collins and I agreed with him when he said if you are building a true scale model to try to duplicate the materials in the real vehicle. At that time I was not aware of any one else other than Ivan and myself building SMHDVs. There were no Personal computers and such to communicate and share ideas by, (no SMHDV forum) only model magazines and those were usually dedicated to air and ship models and were beginning to go over to plastic model kit bashing.

Since we, here on the US don't have shows and contests I feel we are more free to do the aging and such. I may be speaking out of ignorance but I think shows and contests are too restrictive as you must meet certain rules which, in my mind, encourages a certain amount of sameness.

[jraah]

Originally Posted by Bill Hudson

Since we, here on the US don't have shows and contests I feel we are more free to do the aging and such. I may be speaking out of ignorance but I think shows and contests are too restrictive as you must meet certain rules which, in my mind, encourages a certain amount of sameness.

Bill, with all due respect I do think you are speaking out of ignorance regarding restrictive show rules. Here in the UK model makers (certainly all those I know) build models as authentically as they are able to, trying to keep as close to the actual full size vehicle as possible. We don’t make models for the soul purpose of winning awards and getting first prize at shows and exhibitions – that is just an aside!
Indeed, of the 20 events which the GOMW attends each year there are only about four which have a competition section; and their rules are certainly not restrictive in any way. We display our models for our own enjoyment and for the enjoyment of others – not to win awards!

I don’t know where you get the notion that these shows encourage a certain amount of sameness.
A new model maker here in the UK will invariably start with a John Thompson set of plans for their first model attempt. But that is certainly not a bad thing. Some of the most detailed and beautiful models you will see anywhere will be from John Thompson and David Wray plans. There isn’t a sameness to them. You might see three J.T. Oxfordshire Waggons on the same show-bench, but they will be different in one way or another.

Many model makers will eventually have the urge to make a model from their own set of plans; drawn up from measurements and photos of an actual vehicle housed in a barn or on display at a museum. There is no sameness to these; they are very often the only model of that type ever made, a unique one-off!

Now onto the subject of aging a model.
Firstly, I must say, that some of the most attractive and authentic aging I have ever seen, are on some of your fine models Bill. But to do that and get it right is a skill that few of us have. Get it slightly wrong, and it will look shabby. So what do most of us do? We make our model as if it has just come new from the wheelwrights shop or from the master carriage builder’s yard.

Take a look at these models made by Mick Davis, (apologies for the poor photography)
I do think the metalwork on these look natural and somewhat aged. But not everyone can do this and make it look good.



Now look a Brian Simpson’s Coal Cart.
Notice the fine dust on the spokes near the nave and on the top of the springs.



The two models of Mick Davis’s are from David Wray plans, and Brian Simpson’s Coal Cart is from John Thompson’s plans. There isn’t any “sameness” about these models; as I haven’t seen any of these made by any other model maker in the years I have been attending shows and exhibitions.

[Simmy]

Bill,

You have it all wrong regarding competitions and showing. I accept that in the beginning of HDV modelling in the UK in the 1970's there were a lot of similar vehicles made but that was inevitable when plans by John Thompson, David Wray and Barrie Voisey came onto the market. Prior to that there were little or no sources of modelling plans. In fact it was their researches that lead to the explosion of HDV modelling in this country. Because of this with perhaps 40 entrants in competitions a lot of duplication took place. However, gradually modellers became fed up with using other peoples plans and started to look for their own material to produce something unique. I have only been model making for 8 years and in that time have entered 2 or 3 competitions per year and very rarely see JT clones. Also I have never seen or heard of a set of rules. Entrants are asked about their model when filling an entry form.eg.

Is it from an original or pre-existing plans.

What parts were bought or not made by the modeller.

Judges have categories into which marks are awarded such as quality of work, finish on the model, skill level, authenticity. Where one of those categories is Originality and the entrant has used someone elses plans they are unlikely to get high up in the awards as no points will be awarded. It is this aspect that makes me want to find something that no one has modelled before. As to ageing if properly done judges would welcome it as it is not an easy technique. You cannot simply add a finish that is not 100% perfect. It would stick out like a sore thumb as poor quakity work. You have to produce a good finish that would allow the model to stand out on it merits and then set about ageing or distressing it. My Shepherd's Hut is from my researches and measurements and has received considerable positive comment from judges and won a silver medal. I say this not out of conceit but to illustrate that originality is rewarded.

With regard to attending shows this is akin to our chat, exchange of ideas and posting photos on this forum but with the added bonus of doing it face to face.

[Bill Hudson]

Wow!
A guy takes a little holiday to the coast for a few days and all Hell breaks loose. But then a again it is good to see that not every one has gone to sleep, there is still a little live left in this forum after all.
First of all let me make it clear here I mean no ill will and no put down of UK Shows. I was speaking of shows in general (we do have shows here just not SMHDV) and I am speaking only from information I have at hand to make my comments. In no way are they meant to be the gospel.
John, I think I did say I was probably speaking from ignorance (see below).

"Since we, here on the US don't have shows and contests I feel we are more free to do the aging and such. I may be speaking out of ignorance but I think shows and contests are too restrictive as you must meet certain rules which, in my mind, encourages a certain amount of sameness."
I have seen Mick's work before and think it is beautiful. In fact they are artfully beautiful. In my mind to be working pieces the aging should be more consistent. The wood looks new while the metals look some what aged. As for Brian's model there is very little I can say because I am prejudiced. there are a lot of fine model builders out there who build very fine, beautiful, accurate models that when finished just sit there. Only a few can build a model that tells a story and Brian is one of those special model builders.

Brian, My connections to showing are from reading model and Model Engineering magazines from the UK in the 1970s. I have a box full of them still. What I saw then was a lot of JT stuff and more wheel barrows than I ever want to see again. I never saw any thing interesting in any or those magazines but they were a good source for books and materials on model building. Same thing for Model Engineering, How many Foden Steam wagons does it take to soon become boring? The only place we can show her in the Us is model engineering shows. They let us in but we are kind of like ugly stepsisters. Although like you say I enjoyed talking and visiting with the people who came by my tables.


"With regard to attending shows this is akin to our chat, exchange of ideas and posting photos on this forum but with the added bonus of doing it face to face."

It is too bad we can't talk face to face. That would be great. Have/ are any of you on SKYPE? I am expecting to bringing my computer (getting a new one) up to the 21st century soon. It will have a camera in it.

[jraah]

Bill, my dear old buddy; all Hell hasn’t broke loose, we are just having a healthy debate aren’t we? That’s the way I see it anyway. I know you mean no ill will and no put down of UK Shows, and I am just trying to explain what our shows are like here un the UK.

The majority of the shows which we Guild members attend are not competition shows; they are venues where we display our work so that other model makers/ Guild members/ and the general public have the opportunity to view, ask questions, criticize, admire and pass judgment on all aspects of our work…..and I love it!

On occasions, a farmer who actually had a cart or wagon which was the same as one on display will point out some minor discrepancy in the model. It’s good to have someone with first hand knowledge who can point these things out, and we all welcome this.

Those show rule standards I posted in another thread a while back depict the same standards which I would generally work to anyway – except for the bit about the model being on a plinth perhaps. Those rules were bought in over 20 years ago, when horse drawn vehicle models first started to appear on the show bench of model engineering shows. There were few judges then who had ever seen a detailed and accurate model of a HDV.

Here in the UK it has only ever been Guild Members who exhibit any kind of model HDV’s at shows. If we didn’t do it, many people would never be aware that vehicles like this ever existed! The Guild has a worldwide membership of about 114 – there are probably no more than 20 active members who build and show models here in the UK. I would guess that the youngest would be around 60. Many have slowed down now, due to failing eyesight and arthritis etc. We are a decrepit old lot!
It now takes longer to make a model and that is why there are only few new ones which appear each year!

I wish we could see some of your work exhibited here in the UK Bill!